Charlottesville Area Masters of Real Ale

Hey Guys-
I've been brewing for a couple of years now on and off. I first started off with some basic extract kits and followed the directions, using 2 gallons for the wort and then filling the primary up to the 5 gallon mark. It seemed when I did that I would generally get a watered down tasting beer. More recently, I've been brewing recipes from ABS and they've turned out great, but I've been usually filling the primary up to around the 4 gallon mark. I guess I've been thinking that this would give me a more concentrated beer with more flavor. Any thoughts on getting more flavor out? Do you think an extra gallon will make a significant impact? Thanks.
-T

Hey Wahoo,

This may not be the best answer but I think you need to figure out what the flavor is that you are looking for.  Doing the concentrated boil isn't optimal, but it should work well enough. And if you have bought kits from NB and ABS, they know you will be using this method and the recipes are modified accordingly. 

It sounds like, at least to me, that you are just wanting more out of your beers.  Is it maltiness, hoppiness, bitterness, or what?  That might be easiest part to figure out.  Think about what beers you like and want to be able to make yourself.  Taste them again.  What is it that yours are missing? 

Making super-concentrated imperial (insert style) versions of beer isn't that way to go.  I think figuring out what you want and making sure you are tweaking those recipes appropriately will go a long way.   

Offer up what you are looking style-wise to brew, and maybe other members can give some advice as what they've done.  At little specialty grains or dry-hopping go a LONG way, but we need to know what your flavor is.

For you I recommend a Barley Wine, or Imperial style IPA or Stout.

ABS actually has a barley wine recipe in the making, and also a Doppel Bock coming out soon, which will both be very malty and high gravity.

Try the ABS Belgian Dubbel.  It is one of my favorites and is very malty due to the intense grain bill.

The higher your malt:water ratio is, the higher the malt gravity.  There is a difference in malt gravity and fermentable gravity.  You can have a total gravity of 1.070 but only a fermentable gravity of 1.060 due to a high amount of specialty malts that do not have fermentable sugars or the enzymes needed to break down the sugars. Here's an example I just ran for you on our Belgian Dubbel recipe, which has 4 different specialty malts plus candy sugar.

5 Gallons @ 1.065 fermentable gravity (alc% 7.2)  = 4 gallons @ 1.083, alc % to dry (1.010) = 9.7% ! due to decreasing the water by one gallon.  This is just an example, as this recipe actually finishes with high gravity due to low attenuation yeast, ~1.018.  High gravity finishes plus dextrine malts (carapils) can have more body which also helps to intensify the maltiness.

As you can see, by decreasing the water by 1 gallon it has changed the fermentable gravity drasticlly.  Just watch out on doing this to a beer that is already very high in fermentable gravity, as the yeast can have trouble fermenting all the sugar due to alcohol toxicity, resulting in a stuck fermentation. If this should ever happen, you can condition some PDM wine yeast to finish the ferment (LOL) old trick. Or blend the wine and beer yeast as is commonly done with barley wine.

Now, here is total gravity including the specialty malts (total grain bill) on the same recipe.

5 gallons @ 1.073 = 4 gallons @ 1.092 OG.  Since this is total grain bill gravity, the alcohol would stay the same as above.

Our recipes are based off fermentable gravity only, which = potential alcohol.

Hope this helps . . . time to start brewing . . .

Cheers!

I agree with Jamey.  But it might be hard for someone not completely familiar with the BJCP categories to pinpoint the specific beer they like.  How many times have we all heard "I like dark beer", referring to everything from Irish Stouts, Schwarzbiers, dunkelweizens, etc.   Here is a link for the BJCP categories for those not familiar with the different styles:
http://www.bjcp.org/styles04/

Wahoo, what kind of beers have you made thus far that you have made more concentrated by only diluting in 4 gallons?  What were the recipes supposed to make?

Hey All,
Thanks for all the replies. Here are some details...

1. Previous Brews Made (all meant for 5 gal batches)

Brown Ale (Northern Brewer) Extract Kit
I made this beer a couple of years ago when a buddy of mine and I were just starting out brewing and again last summer. I still have a few bottles kicking around and was thinking of bringing a couple to the meeting on Monday to get some first hand reactions. But from what I recall about the original brew and what I've experienced with this one has a lack of lasting flavor on the palate. There is a nice rich brown color, a mild aroma, and slight bitterness, but no real body or substance to the beer. For both these brews I filled the primary up to the 5 gallon mark. I guess I'm looking for more maltiness, so it would follow to add more malt. Overall, I just want more body, and the taste to be like one of the great german beers out there.

Hard Cider
This doesn't really count, but I'll throw it up here anyway. Got 5 gal of cider from carter's mountain, threw it in the primary with some irish moss and added some ale yeast. I got out something that tastes very similar to pee, or at least what I would imagine pee would taste like. I think I should have done some pasteurizing and I also heard about adding apple flavoring following fermentation. I'll bring some to the meeting. Maybe you all could taste it and see what could be changed/adjusted/laugh with me about how bad it tastes.

Pumpkin Ale
This one I concocted myself and ended up using a large amount of pumpkin puree and some baked pumpkin pieces. Long story short, all the pumpkin crumbled apart in the boil and when I was straining the wort into the primary fermenter, it just kept clogging the strainer and I think I only ended up with 4 gallons, not by choice, but due to so much volume lost because of the pumpkin. Overall, I thought it turned out pretty decently.

Spiced Winter Ale Extract Kit
I made this guy over the winter and from the "watery" results I had with the brown ales, I only filled to the 4 gallon mark. I think I should have filled to the 5 gal mark, as the beer seemed to be rather high in alcohol content. Also, from the spice pack, there were some rather overpowering concentrated flavors. I had friends note flavors of orange, cherry, lemon, and even cough syrup. Overall, kind of terrible.

Summer Honey Wheat Extract Kit
This one turned out great, and went with the 4 gallon mark again. I think it might have been again slightly higher in alcohol, but overall very drinkable and this one ended up going pretty fast, and to be honest, don't recall much about its character.

ABS Chocolate Covered Stout
Again I filled only to the four gal mark, should have gone with the 5. It tasted great, but again seemed a bit concentrated. I've gotten complements on this one, and all I can say is complements to ABS! I hooked it up to nitrogen and the head and body is excellent. So, I guess, I'm looking to achieve something like this in terms of body and flavor. I think the next batch I brew I'm just going to make the leap of faith and fill to the 5 gal mark.

Doc M, thanks for the ABS Belgian Dubbel suggestion. I've had my eye on that guy. Also, I've had such good results with the ABS recipes so far, I will definitely follow the protocol of filling the primary to the 5 gal mark.
Jamey & Spidey, thanks for helping me zone in on what style I'm looking to achieve. Its a very good point.

Lastly, one other thing. I've heard that the meeting size has grown in size drastically, and meeting in the court square tavern is getting a little small to accommodate these numbers. One thing I might be able to help out with would be to arrange to meet in a classroom or meeting room at UVA and also fill out an alcohol permit so that people could bring their own homebrew to trade, drink, compare, etc. Often, these meeting rooms have computer hook ups and presentation capabilities. Let me know if you all are interested, maybe for the meeting in May.

One other thing of note...
I realize its a bottom fermenting beer, but if I could brew something similar to a Einbecker Mai-Ur bock, I could die happy.
Thanks.
-T

Wahoo,

It is great you are working at the brewing and getting good results.  So much of homebrewing is figuring out what works on your system, your schedule, your beer.  You can get a lot of information from others about what works for them, and some of those nuggets will improve your process.  But bottom line, keep working at it and if you are enjoying your beer great.  It improves as long as you keep trying, keep an open mind, and keep learning.

As for bocks and other lagers, the key to making them work is temp control.  If you don't have an environment that you can control temperature, something in the range of 40 to 50 F, then it will be hard to do.  Lager yeasts usually ferment for a couple of weeks between 40 and 50 and then lager (I think that is German for cold storage, but I heard that on a podcast and have never verified that) for several weeks below 40 degrees.  This makes a smooth clear beer that is what the lager set of styles are all about.

If you don't have the ability to cool that cold, you could look into a Califoria Common (commerical example is Anchor Steam).  This is a style of beer that is made with a lager yeast at cold ale temperatures (low 60s or so).  It makes a good smooth beer and Jamey makes a great one!  Maybe he will post the recipe some day.

Wahoo,
I agree that the ABS Belgian Dubbel might be a good one for you to try.  Be aware that Belgian yeasts especially can impart very different flavors not only based on yeast strain but also based on temperature.  If you're not an experienced brewer, it might be a bit of a crap-shoot. But in my opinion it would still be worth doing.
I think I might also suggest trying a Robust Porter or Baltic Porter. Here you could legitimately use an ale yeast (unlike a clone recipe of your lager favorite), you've got a darker beer, and you have a higher ABV and hop IBUs.  I don't know of a particular recipe as I haven't personally made one before, but I would look for something along those lines.  If you like ABS recipes, I see that they have a TwoPenny Porter that might fit the bill.  Comments Doc M?

Huh what? Oh yeah, umm, yeah the Twopenny Porter is, of course, a heavy malt beer.  Our recipe has Munich, Crystal, Chocolate, Black Patent, and most importantly carapils, that helps add that dextine body, which helps out the malt taste.  No roasted barley!  Against our religion for porter.  Also, once again, a low attenuating yeast for a high final gravity helps the malt character.  The fermentable gravity on this beer is 1.055.

Now, back to what I was doing here, oh yes, tasting the Simcoe Special IPA.  As you were . . .

The watery taste is usually due to the final gravity of the extract finishing very low. You are probably ending up with brews that lack the sufficient body needed for the style, and your liking. What are the final gravities ending up being? By simply making 4 instead of 5 gallons, you may just end up with higher alcohol beer with insufficent bitterness that is still lacking body.

One option (to reiterate what Doc M said) is to steep grains that are high in non-fermentables such as Car-pils, crystal malts, etc. This will help increase body. I also recommend looking for quality extracts that specify the body they typically produce. Some extracts are made specifically with higher amounts of non fermentables (such as John Bull). Also, there are several non fermentables you can add right into the boil: malto-dextrine, lactose, etc. These will also increase body.

-Jon

Jon might be right, but I think it is obviously still important to figure out what that elusive "flavor" thing is.  I wouldn't have thought that mouthfeel and the aqueousness of a brew could be construed as a deficit in flavor, but everyone's taste buds are different.

If you are using liquid malt extract (LME), which is the cheapest extract way to go, definitely check out what is in the extract.  I don't see LME on the ABS site, but I know lots of the NB extracts already contain carapils in them.  Wacht out not to overload with that by adding more to the steep.  Malto dextrin has definitely always worked for me.

This is a good point.

Wahoo, one thing you may want to do, if you still have some of the brown ale left, is to buy some commercial versions of the style and compare them to what you brewed. You may find a big difference in what you brewed to the appropriate styles, or you may find that the style is not to your liking. It looks like after you made one watery beer, you started making 4 gallon batches.

Also, if you need a great dry hard cider recipe:

5 gallons apple juice (with no preservatives)
1 packet red star montrachet wine yeast

add all ingredients to a 5 gallon carboy, put airlock on (fill almost all the way to the top, there won't be any krausen), wait 6 weeks...it should get very clear. it's now ready to bottle or keg...it will be delicous when it has fully carbed. If you add 2 lbs of dextrose to the ingredient list you'll get the famous "Edwort's Apfelwein." I like the less winelike, lower alcohol version better.

Thanks for the cider recipe.  I said I was going to do a hard cider last year, but never got around to it.  I need to do one this Fall.